2022.08.24 WednesdayWe are glad that you do. whats wrong with mess anyway? @ Darcyjo:I wish I could hear you preach. I accept with humility that there are things that I cannot understand. Once again, I was struck by Olson's response. Can we not make allowance for Gods ways to be different from ours? But whatever I believe about the sovereignty of God, it is MORE important to me to believe that God does not author evil and he does not desire for those he loves to suffer. Or if I make it to the Board of Ordained Ministry in February, Ill share my recording. As for it being our purpose in life, its about as inspiring as a plate of lima beans for breakfast. And honestly, whether they admit it or not, it appears to me most of the good Calvinist I know operate that way anyway. The Baptist tradition is one of the most diverse in Protestant Christianity. I worked in a womens shelter and was surprised at the number of pastors wives (well-known ones, too) who were regulars in the shelter. This website helped me tremendously as a recovering Piperite, and Im so grateful that I dont have to believe that God CAUSED this illness for some mysterious glory. Yes, God WILL receive glory somehow from it, but thats not his grand purpose. Look at my Perfect System! Ive seen the attitude too often in fandom, and for some reason political or theological fanboys are a lot more respectable than furry or otaku or gamer fanboys, though the underlying dynamic is similar. Also, not all Calvinists are believe in particular pre-destination that is, not all Calvinists believe God causes everything, there are degrees from some just view salvation as pre-destined, to others believing you are reading this because God ordained it from the beginning, so Pipers view of tornadoes is not universally agreed on by Calvinists. Thanks for the link to the article on Sproul, Jr. As many are probably thinking, what would Sproul, Sr. have to say about this? What you believe is irrelevant. Church Discipline We all went to Bostons Youthtimeno mention of Calvinism, Armininism or in between like me. It stopped making sense when God began to show me in many profound ways that He loves me. , @ Hester: Likewise, Hester, likewise! Charles . Makes available his super-ability where your ability comes to an end. . I just ordered the book! As in I Got It Right! These leaders are not MY leader, and they are not the leaders of the men and women at my church. This is the place where all the puzzle pieces do not fit for me, and I am OK with that. But something has changed in the last number of years. Not really thinking things though. Tell othersthat such thinking hurts you but do not expect them to understand. Ah yes, those were the days A friend of mine came to the Lord while living in the hills above Santa Barbara in a teepee and smoking a lot of pot He and his wife were some of the most sane, grounded people I knew in the 80s. Put more simply, I view others as if I were an Arminian and myself as if I were a Calvinist. Though I love discussing theology, I am a total lightweight compared to most (or all) of the participants in this conversation.Someday I hope to focus more on the study of how all the different denominations developed their spin.and the various characters who poured their lives into our Christian history. I recently found the article online hereand it made me cry as I thought about the journey of my life since that night. We have a question for you? Why the pessimism? Matthew Pinson Michael Brown Michael Heiser Mildred Bangs Wynkoop Miner Raymond N Nathan Bangs Norman Geisler [footnote]Geisler refers to himself as a Calvinist but his works reflect a more non-Calvinist view of soteriology [/footnote] O P Paige Patterson Philip H. Towner Q R Randolph S. Foster Ravi Zacharias Richard Lenski Richard Watson To insist on it is to cling to an inadequate, incorrect understanding of God, IMO. If the plumb line for perfection is NO yeast, then of what relevance is the statement: The bread is not as yeast-y as it could be. I dont have experience of dealing with, or helping someone else deal with, child sex abuse; and of course I dont have experience of being someone else. I would be happy, however, to never use the label Calvinist again, out of respect for Jeff and Jeff. A very messy prospect, to say the least, and it hadnt worked in centuries past. Good point. If this is so, its really astounding. And speaking for myself, I take that conflict ( as an adult, as a student of scripture, having read many books on Calvinism) very seriously. Had childhood friends who were Nazarene and Presbyterian and myself., Plymouth Brethren. Bummer. Its very difficult and exhausting having a conversation with people who claim you never, ever get their views correct. Anywaythats fine. Happy Holidays. There is much we have in common, but I honestly have to say that I have encountered more of a critical attitude toward other denominations while I was in the neo-Calvinist camp. The last point of Calvinism we'll be dealing with is the perseverance of the saints. I found an interweb site a while back that had a downloadable version of Calvins Pentateuch (as I call it, by analogy rather than because it contains five of anything in particular). An infant does not want, nor desire steak. This is one of the few places where that doesnt happen on a regular basis! Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. I think this post was a great step toward making those folks feel more welcome. As Ive said, the idea that evil exists at all with an all powerful and good God troubles me, and I do not have an answer for it. Off topic but growing up and even today my enduring friendships are with folks who had at least one immigrant parent.. one each from Greece, Italy and Albania. How to Resign from a Church But my point wasnt to proof text Calvin. Witherington and Lenski are not Calvinists, but they're not Arminians, either. Again, this idea that humans had no will to act is not something that the WCF, RC Sproul, or any Calvinist I know believes. Its like taking someone whos been caged and respecting that they might not feel comfortable in small rooms, or inside buildings at all. But you didnt fall for it, elastigirl. elatigirl Im with you here, which is why I dont post much on these theological threads It seems useless to me to try to figure out God especially as Scripture makes it clear that he has many attributes on either end of the spectrum. I dont think God wanted this to happen- any more than he plans for children to be abused or any other of the litany of horrors that go on in this world. He beat me to the punch. To me, being fed pat answers is more analogous to being fed sawdust because fibre is good for you. And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love ones neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, You are not far from the kingdom of God. And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions. Actually Ive always thought of the hyper crowd in any area as the ones who want to get in your face and tell everyone how if they are not with them they are against them. considering you are being so charitable and I called Calvinism a horrible doctrine. What I am saying is that there is such a thing as finding joy in salvation, thanking God for His grace, but accepting that there is peace to be found in paradoxes. By 'not real' I mean that the meaning is destroyed in the overall thought of the clause or sentence. I dont know how else God can allow his creation to be truly free, if he steps in each and every time somebody decides to hurt somebody else, or if He removes all evil from society all the time. Calvinism stopped making sense to me when I was grieving the loss of my son last year. Ex-Calvinist Daniel Gracely in his book Calvinism a closer look writes: "Calvinist and Non-Calvinist do not share the same meaning of words.. Yesthat could very well be what they mean. I believe that this misunderstanding puts the m FAS sis on the wrong sil LA ble, on the misunderstood sovereignty as misunderstood, instead of on the love that God, as our creator father (dada), has for us, enough love to experience the indignities of life in the first century in the middle East, to be persecuted, and to die a horribly painful and disgraceful death by torture in public, all for our benefit. It seems to me that JeffS and Craig (over at SSB) understand that point and are processing it beautifully. It was so strong that I knew I had to write what was going on inside of me in connection with my childhood abuse. is far removed from anything I, or any other Calvinist I know, believes. (I mean, Star Trek?). Just an observation. Itook to reading Calvin, Sproul, Edwards, Grudem, Piper, et al. Do you not understand non Calvinists read the scriptures with the intent of honestyseeing what it says instead of wanting it to conform to our beliefs yet reading the very same scriptures with due diligence, do not come to a believe (amongst other things)in double predestination. Good post Dee (If Im allowed to comment on this one!). There is something that has been horribly misinterpreted in the verse about All things work together for good..etc It has almost created a cult of catastrophe. Thanks for taking my comment in the way I intended. Bridget, would you mind documenting instances of this, if its not too much trouble, because I would be very interested in knowing if any of these people would make such a basic mistake about the concept of Total Depravity. We wouldnt be having any of these conversations if that doctrine was being labeled as hyper-Calinvism, which is what it has been called in the past. Kentucky. (LogOut/ I have no problem with thatno one likes to be labeled. Because he did not adhere to the beliefs of his well-known pastor. New Calvinism is not a new branch of theology or a denomination. Under that, Calvins page count is over 2400 pages of theological system, over TEN TIMES the length of a typical genre novel of the Seventies, over FIVE TIMES the length of a typical paperback today, and at least 2/3 the length of the Lord of the Rings. Hopefully that will be winding down soon and Ill be able to get back on track this week or next. I really think that we have to go to Scripture with the intent of honestly, to the best of our ability, seeing what it says and submitting to its truth, instead of wanting it to confirm our beliefs. Weve all been taught by people with various frameworks- that isnt bad. However, when a woman has been abused for years by the men in her life, its going to be natural that she lashes out at men and not feel safe around them. . That also struck me and started me thinking. @ JeffB: Luther also wrote a great deal about Romans 8 and similar passages. I met my husband when he wandered over to Park Street after he attended a service at Tremont Temple. For there, we will still be the created and He will still be the Creator. Well see how well I execute on that. I liked that. Olsen is one of the writers who sees two "loose coalitions" developing in evangelical theology. In fact, I would have said that TWW was more anti-Calvinist than it was anti-Abuse. @ Bridget: If you read it,you will most likely have a heart attack. I have worked with you and at least a handful of other Calvinists who truly defend the abused/oppressed and I am glad to call you friend. Life is full of uncertainties, and we will never be able to rid our lives of uncertainties, of doubts, of questions. 1) That article. I need it. Ravi Zacharias 26. That they are the sole divine recipients of truth, again. I think so, but Im not quite sure what youre asking. . Sproul Steve Lawson Voddie Bachham Wayne Grudem People Guilty Of Greatly Spreading The False "Free Will" Gospel: Bill Bright Billy Graham Charles Finney That's pretty darn impressive, and many many . Old Pollyannasdie hard. I believe that Calvin and, more importantly, Scripture says that nothing we think, say, or do comes as a surprise to God. . Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Feb 9, 2018. Did you notice that I used the word "non-Calvinist" as opposed to Arminian? 4) Christ died NOT for us, but to bring glory to the Father. I am not trying to hurt or be cruelI am trying to say that ideas must have basis, and one does not get to declare an idea and then refuse to defend it rationally by appealing to humanitys inherent inability to understand it, and THEN proceed to give examples of why what is a contradiction in the doctrine really isnt a contradiction. Pushing Calvin on a hurting individual is like pushing steak on an infant. What I mean is doctrinally I cant find the distinction. I have a very low tolerance for that kind of thing. Study some good books that present the non-Calvinist point of view. I also want to learn to be a bit more like Olson, showing kindness in the midst of disagreement. However, for thosewho believe that evangelical churches are theologically light, my church experiences would challenge their assumption. And those who have been left behind when theyve fallen in between, On the altar of the simple road is the blood of the messy gray Please, please, please, keep us posted on your son in law. I would say its better to address individual issues anyway rather than decided if you can accept the tag. If the person makes the comment because he/she believes its important that others should know that there are people who can be hurt by that conversation in real life, how should that affect the online discussion? A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. All the water in the glass was tainted with a bit of black dye, but it was not pure black and saturated with the dye. Demand they defend their ideas. If you think I should be silent whenever I see Calvinism misrepresnted, then that isnt right. God has chosen THEM as the sole recipients of His TRUTH. Mark Driscoll, John Piper and Tim Keller megachurch preachers and important evangelical authors are all Calvinist. If we get to where we can podcast, Ill drop you a link. Hmmm all I can say is, it depends on the individual and in what way theyre hurting. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. As leader of the Anti-Revolutionary Party in the Netherlands he served as Prime Minister of his country from 1901 to 1905. Probably originated with Calvinists during the Reformation Wars or their descendants the Puritans; as an answer to the question Am I One of The Elect? Using Im Rich! Have prayed for him, his family and physicians. In fact, I doubt any of the Cavlinistas would even agree with that thought process. But the guy still strikes me as the I have Everything figured out! I met my husband when he wandered over to Park Street after he attended a service at Tremont Temple. There are many bite marks on my tongue. This is merely a nice way of saying that God hasnt enlightened you to the truth. Any small error can lead us on to some very large mistakes if we arent careful. He should be a great example to you. The Literature of the Old Testament (1913) [Chapter9], Introduction to the New Testament (1915) [Chapter9], https://laikostheologos.com/introduction-to-soteriology/%5B/footnote%5D, Cultural Dimension of Language andLiterature, Gods Sovereignty in relation to Mans sinfulacts. Or at least they start to think they have the powers and rights (divine?) http://www.seattlepi.com/news/us/article/Head-of-Southern-Baptist-school-marks-20-years-4780941.php. It is very easy to proof text Calvin to prove any point you want to make about what he believed or didnt believe. That should be enough to cause himto squirm. Could we continue this discussion under the more recent Calvinist post, For Calvinists? And as someone suggested, what is sometimes passed off as Calvinism is actually so-called hyper-Calvinism and my theological dictionary suggests its hard sometimes to tell the difference in some hyper-Calvinist writers. (Mark 12:28-34, ESV). The few times we have joined her at her church the pastor has focused on being examples of love and doing good in the community. Id like to agree with both, if thats ok. We need exactly the right kind of nutrition at exactly the right kind, but maybe not the milky kind because we emerge from trauma both far too old and still too young. I had Wade Burelson come to my little rinky-dink blog and debate me on my turf. In fact, I recently wrote a song about it- some of the lyrics (this song could be titled ode to John Piper and his views on Divorce and Remarriage, but I did not quite go that far): So many people with big ideas who have it all figured out You should see another Christian blog where the wars are almost as bad (hatred-wise) as the different Muslim sects slaughtering each other in Iraq & Syria. This, of course, is totally irrelevant. It was written by. God is immense beyond our comprehension and because of that, I do not believe the Calvinist ideas of Sovereignty (or the related principles of TULIP). You should see some of the other ixtian blogs. I saw this is a problem, and I do think Deb and Dee have addressed it. And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. But it is not- God has power over every molecule and can prevent it from messing up his redemptive plan. On some He will act directly; others He will be aware of and use for His purposes. I do believe that He allows these things-for unexplainable reasons- but do I believe that He sits there and plans for a mothers only child to die in a crime? Ryrie, Rice, Wesley, WE Vine, Geisler, and RA Torrey come to mind as non-calvinists who I personally find thoughtful, sound theologians who happen to disagree with me on this very fine issue of theology. Thats why I wrote If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong.. In this video, Jesse Morrell refutes the Calvinist doctrine that God is the author of sin. Learn more or donate today at crossway.org/about . Please continue to dialog. I have read at his site just a little bit and so far have found many of his thoughts very satisfying on all levels. If they use their beliefs to beat people over the head, they are obviously jerks. Since I have never read Instititues, I cant be more specific. Those of us who were vocally opposed to the leadership during the days of the Brent Detwiler Wiki Wars were quietly asked to leave, and they held open the door for me and my family with dulcet platitudes and smiling faces. Reformed theology has other tenets, which Calvin influenced, along with other theologians like Augustine (354-430) and Ulrich Zwingli (1484-1531). And if you reject the doctrine as it has been historically understood (like the guy at my church), then at least you are wrestling with a time tested theology, not a new fad, and wrestling with time tested theology can only help you grow as a Christian. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian) and the church councils, which means we all accept the most important teachings on Christs Person, His Deity and resurrection, and the teachings on the Trinity. John Hagee. I understand its maddening to shoot at a moving target. Then I checked the remaining word-count: well over 600,000. There appears to be a loss of respect for those who are not Calvinist in their thinking. These tenets include, An emphasis on three foundational covenants: redemption, works, and grace An emphasis on the continuity between the Old and New Testament Im very glad that I can call you a sister in our Lord and a friend.. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. This is not the way toward peace. How is that? They are letting someone else handle driving. You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer. They are charitable and give us the benefit of the doubt. Olson made the point that it was his goal to represent Calvinism in a way that Calvinists would agree with his characterizations, if not with his conclusions. (Okay, back into lurk..later, yall!). Can I ask you what your views are on RC Sproul and the Ligonier contingent? Its also what attracts many people to Calvinism nice boxes for everything, and rules connecting those boxes. Even the Bible uses hyperbole to make pointsa lot! As for being Lutheran, I think people get this confused sometimes as if all Lutherans follow everything Luther wrote. But Jesus and he should know praised his Father for hiding these things from the wise and learned, revealing them instead to little weans. This is an absolutely beautiful statement! Michael Horton, in For Calvinism, w/ an intro by Roger Olson (a book I will probably keep mentioning, if you dont mind, because it deals with the issues discussed here and on other blogs) even has a chapter on the obnoxious ways of some Calvinists, and how to get past it. But when I look at the attitude of evangelism presented in scripture, it seems a lot closer to how an Arminian would frame it: a call of hope to those who would repent and turn to God. Although in the ever increasing post-denominational ecumenical trend, a lot of this gets blurred and you'll occasionally see Calvinist doctrines pop up even among the occasional practitioner of any tradition. Agree that you cant really know, truth, and as such you can have NO basis for denying their doctrine. Im talking about TULIP. If I am doing good by sowing good wheat kernels and not tares, why would the Almighty want to stop me? We are. I will say they are much more composed personalities. Argo. Or maybe a better example would be if someone said The practice of withholding baptism from infants is evil, Im sure people would rush to defend their position. Michael Brown David Jeremiah Dave Hunt J. W. MacGorman E. Y. Mullins Herschel Hobbs W. T. Conner Frank Stagg Fisher Humphreys Bert Dominy Ken Keathley Norm Geisler Alister McGrath David Bentley Hart Mike Licona Which is fine! The heart and soul of Reformed theology is the glory of the triune God ( Ps. Now I believe it and I think its what scripture teaches, but how in the world can it be necessary and central to the Gospel if the church didnt even think about it in earnest for 1500 years? I am having trouble keeping up with all the comments between the two. As for my content, I think the Nicene Creed covers a lot of it. Ah, elastigirl, I have missed you and your wonderful thoughts. I know that it started spontaneously on another thread, but you could have said enough.. The guy wearing glasses in the video gave an interesting explanation, though he chose to use the Fall in the Garden, rather than a more contemporary example. Theres nothing wrong with pondering and wondering at the truths Jesus represents. My bet would be that some (many?) @ Daisy: Online discussions of religion and politics usually end by going up in flames, with a lot of nastiness to boot. But it is you, a man like myself, my companion, my close friend, with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship at the house of God, as we walked about among the worshippers. I know of Hortons book and I shall read that after I finish Olson. I think this is true. They alone have truth in ALL things, by Gods special revelation. I. Howard Marshall 28. All this does is affirm theism itself. This is a false dichotomy. Online, of course, its much harder to gauge actually, impossible, since you have no idea who is reading what youre writing. Is proud of you. I think that is why it is good that Dee/Deb use the term Cavinista. It wasnt until they tried to recruit me to take an $85.00 course to learn to speak in tongues that I actually started studying my Bible. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that you dont want Calvinists to be completely honest about what they believe in the current discussion, because someone may be hurt. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! Resistance is futile.. Of course you are. (though in truth, I probably still get to read most of your comments from my lurking place, even though I rarely get to comment anymore). Any benefit we get from His death (i.e., salvation) is great, but if we act like we are too focused on salvation, we are selfish and may not even be saved.. Brings to mind the documentary This Emotional Life I saw on PBS. Glad youre mentioning Roger Olson, Dee. These accusations are often followed by the fact that although they cant explain away the opposing verses, nonetheless they know their view is the truth. http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/09/taking-calvinism-too-far-rc-sproul-jrs-evil-creating-deity/, Having left my few years of Calvinism through a Lutheran rescue, I just pictured a bunch of Germans and Norwegians riding in on cavalry horses, flying a Lutheran rose and singing A Mighty Fortress Is Our God, @ Hester: Make that Ein Feste Burg is Unser Gott, Hester! B. Warfield said, "The Calvinist, in a word, is the man who sees God. We can all agree that automaton doctrine is evil. In that case they are probably reading an interpretation of what Calvin actually wrote. When we say, during the inevitable discussion of Gods sovereignty with a traumatized person, that even wrongs are ordained because God ordains all, we cause existential damage. But RC, as a neo-Cal intellectual, is, I think, trying to avoid what so many Calvinists do with regularity, and have no problem with it: concede that at the root of what they believe are ideas that simply cannot be reconciled. To me, that question is the greatest challenge to Christianity there is. R.C. He isnt at cross-purposes with Himself, so the question is silly. I dont know. Oy. Nope, not a Cal. There is nothing wrong with being emotional about it, either, except that we need to not use it to demean the other. Rather, it is a "revival" of sortsa revival of traditional, "old" Calvinism.The movement is sweeping through American evangelical churches of all denominations, attracting young people from Free Church, Episcopal, Independent, Presbyterian, and Baptist churches alike. So, when some folksfinally get into a Calvinist church that teaches sound doctrine, they believe that they have found a system that has answers for many questions that had troubled them. Roger E. Olson (born 1952) is Professor of Theology, George W. Truett Theological Seminary, Baylor University, Waco, Texas, USA. What bothers me is that your leaders disregard my objections, calling me barely a Christian or saying that Olson is not a Christian.. God does indeed work in mysterious and wonderful ways Breathes words of consolation deep inside you. Craigs got it right.
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