2022.08.24 WednesdayIf youre looking for all all-around best knife steel, youd be hard-pressed to find one better than Bohler Uddeholm M390. It is an excellent steel that in the right hands has proven to produce high performing blades. Powder metallurgy steels with low vanadium content like CPM-1V and Z-Tuff/CD#1 have extremely high toughness. Im writing a book about choosing a knife for EDC. n690 Its used for combat knives, bushcrafting knives, and other applications where having a supertough blade trumps the need for edge retention and corrosion resistance. Below, weve listed some of the attributes you might want out of your steel and given some examples in both the more expensive powder metallurgy steels and more affordable conventionally produced steels. Thank you for putting this together, incredibly useful! Editors note: This article was first published in May 2015 and was most recently updated on May 25, 2020. However, many kinds of wood are REALLY tough and very hard on blades. The hardness of the carbides does not matter much unlike with edge retention. . What it is: D2 is a carbon tool steel with a relatively high chromium content, prompting some to call it a "semi-stainless" steel. If you want to learn more than keep reading past the ratings. It would be interesting to try to develop a conversation between /geometry/edge retention/toughness, so we could say e.g. Conventionally produced steels include AEB-L, A2, 52100, 12C27, 14C28N, and AUS-8/,8Cr13MoV. 2. I will be focusing on CATRA edge retention which measures abrasive wear of knives. However, the relative difference in toughness between these different examples are similar. Ruike Sandvik 14c28n vs D2 : r/knives - reddit This grade can be treated cryogenically to improve edge retention. High Alloy Tool Steels and High Speed Steels. YMMV I have two quick questions, Only a skilled blacksmith can make Damascus steels, so they tend to be expensive. Many steel ratings seem to over-emphasize edge retention. Where the black-finished 1.4116 version has a simple, full flat grind, the D2 version has a compound flat grind that ends halfway up the blade's height. 14c28n Steel Review - Knives & Gear I have not provided a rating for ease in sharpening. 14C28N vs. D2. : knife a with a toughness of 5 and an angle of 20 degrees will perform as well in edge retention as knife b with a toughness of 3 and an angle of 15 degrees. Chris Reeves version, which is about two points less hard than others, is quite good. Old time 8670, 5160 (known to ignoramuses as 51shitty) and 52100 are excellent choices and arguably better choices than 80crv2. Below I have shown the difference in carbide volume between AEB-L, CPM-10V, and Rex 121 to get an idea of how much more carbide there is in the high edge retention steels. Its a good balance between all three attributes, being relatively hard, tough, and corrosion-resistant. Read more about how it works here. Another is that 8Cr13MoV is a generic name for a specific composition while AUS-8 is a name of a product by a specific company. Become a patron and gain access to awesome rewards including early access to articles or a Knife Steel Nerds mug! Most vintage tool blades seem to have been made of 1084/1095 or similar, presumably at some <60 Rc hardness that gave the required toughness, and the rules of thumb for sharpening angles are based on those assumptions. I have an article that lists off the major mistakes often made in heat treating. Ease of Sharpening: One advantage of 8Cr13MoV is that it is easier to sharpen than D2 steel. The knife does dull faster. whats even more disturbing is that cvn and fracture toughness sometimes (often?) Goes to show that science not marketing or conjecture is what determines a good steel, 51shitty? Actually, Id be thinking 14C28N, but I want to leave stainless out. 14C28N is stainless steel, and its knives offer excellent rust resistance and toughness than D2 steel. All three of these steels havechromium, molybdenum, vanadium, and tungsten components and will perform well in myriad tasks. 14c28n Steel - Is it Good for the knife? (Composition Analysis) I wont go into detail about those here. Sandvik 14C28N steel is better than D2 steel in corrosion resistance and toughness. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Hi Larrin Your estimate of 420HCs corrosion resistance is different here than in your October, 2019 post on corrosion resistance testing: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/10/14/corrosion-resistance-testing/ 1060 There are also hardness/toughness and hardness/TCC charts.but no tables backing this charts. H1 and 420 also have excellent corrosion resistance but are limited to lower hardness and edge retention. Not to sound like a ship, but these two knife inspiration makes this an eye-catching knife. 7:00am-5:00pm, 10am-7pm Tuesday - Friday But unlike most high-end steels, SPY27 is an easily user-serviceable powder steel. This doesnt necessarily mean they have terrible toughness, but they have limitations. It can withstand a lot of wear and tear. I am just grasping at straws here, but from the data you shared, it seems like toughness does increase faster than edge retention decreases: it is harder to get a very high edge retention knife that will still be somewhat tough compared to a very tough knife that will still hold an edge ok. If you are looking for a high-end knife on a budget, the varieties of both steel will serve you. worldwide, even the chinese have an equivalent (8cr13mov). 2. There you said 7.6 for 420HC. If the steel is overheated in austenitizing, very large reductions in toughness are possible. Jeff I worked at a company that heat treated D2 (1.55% C) planer blades for a company that built wood working equipment for commercial shops. what does a cvn of 40 v.s 20 mean? Is there a reason SG2/R2 are not included in the lineup, despite being one of the most popular ones? The brand Bark River uses A2 in many models. Tough steel can handle impacts without gross chipping or a tip breaking off. Because of its difficulty in sharpening and machining, its very rarely used and comes with a high price premium. Vanax and LC200N are unique in reaching 59-60 Rc while being very stain resistant. Larrin, thank you for this. Heres a brief description of their impact on the resulting steels properties. are after the ratings. As to a difference between 8.6 and 8.5, all of the ratings here are rounded to the nearest 0.5 because better than that probably shows false precision. also the angle is by far the most important factor in catra testing, so such results might be irrelevant. What is pulling that line high and to the right? This is one of the fundamental tradeoffs in steel. A new steel from Crucible, SPY27 launched in 2020 in the Spyderco Native 5and Para 3. However, the 14c28n provides perfect edge retention with a maximum hardness of 62Hrc and the mixture of Chromium and Carbon. This particular steel grade allows for the highest attainable hardness without. This is a very important factor when selecting a steel for your knife blade, especially if you plan on spending a lot of time outdoors in an area with high humidity.. S30v is a higher ranked steel and considered a true Stainless Steel, with a 14% . Steels that can be high in edge retention and toughness are desirable for general use knives. Edge Retention Test! 14c28n vs VG10 blade steel comparison - YouTube Theres still a lot of misinformation being pushed by influencers especially in knife steel rankings. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/03/cryogenic-part1/ Thank you. https://cedric-ada-store.creator-spring.com/listing/brickard-heritage-collectionGood gravy its bricky on thingsSubscribe and hit the bell! Is 14c28n Steel Good For Knives? A Complete Guide - Knife Pulse The hardness level of steel is determined using a universal scale called the "Rockwell C Test", commonly called the Rockwell hardness scale (HRC). It has a lower hardness and edge retention as compared to the 9Cr knife. its like with cars, most of them are not a corvette or a porsche. Hammering through hickory, digging at roots in sandy soil, and cutting around bone did nothing to chip, dent, or roll the edge of my 3V knives. Find your right answers here! The table shows combinations of knife steel properties for different classes of steel. 12C27 Furthermore, because of its ultrahigh hardness, Maxamet is very prone to corrosion, probably worse than 1095. Get for a complete guide about other steel; you can read 14c28n vs 8cr13mov reviews. Tanto EDGE RETENTION . Other factors that can be added in are corrosion resistance, hardness, and cost. They represent the absolute best performers on the market in terms of their specific attributes. Using controlled furnace heat treating resulted in toughness around 23-28 ft-lbs at 61-62 Rc, while the knifemaker heat treated specimens were 7 ft-lbs or below. Check out theGiantMouse Vox/Anso ACE Iona Liner Lock Knife at $99, for example. Its found on a large number of traditional-style folders. . In use, its very similar to 440C and VG-10. Cookie Notice 8am-5pm Saturday. You can see micrographs of different knife steels to compare their carbides in this article. CPM154 is a truly superior steel. In particular, I really care about the toughness / hardness part. And below shows a chart of carbide hardness, the equation we created to predict edge retention based on edge angle, hardness, and carbide volumes, and then the chart showing the good correlation: TCC (mm) = -157 + 15.8*Hardness (Rc) 17.8*EdgeAngle() + 11.2*CrC(%) + 14.6*CrVC(%) + 26.2*MC(%) + 9.5*M6C(%) + 20.9*MN(%) + 19.4*CrN(%). 14c28n steel and D2 steel are both high-quality knife steels. With toughness it is a bit harder to link to only one article as I dont really have a summary of all of the toughness testing that we have done. It mainly made for knife and it high in Chromium for excellent corrosion resistance. drop point It richly deserves its reputation for high-quality gained over the years by Sandvik, a Swedish manufacturer of world-renowned steel. The study of steel is now so complex and nuanced that one can acquire a graduate degree in the subject and still learn new things every day. Not as tough as the best carbon steels, it's tougher than most . CPM-REX 121 and Maxamet are both in this category. CRKT and Spyderco use BD1. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Edge retention is the ability of a knife to maintain cutting ability during cutting. Crucible intends SPY27 to be good all-around knife steel. But SM100 is not widely available, hard to heat treat and grind, and exceptionally expensive. Or is this an argument that tends to be rooted more in the presumption that Japanese steel > Chinese steel than any practical difference in reality? Display: 24 per page Sort by: Featured View CIVIVI Voltaic Flipper Knife Stainless Steel Handle With Micarta Inlay (3.48" 14C28N Blade) $88.30 Add to cart Blue Super and 1.2562 have higher edge retention but relatively low toughness. A2 knives need care taken to avoid rust and are often coated to inhibit corrosion. D2 has a relatively high amount of carbon in its composition (1.55%), more than twice as much as AEB-L (0.68%), but most of that carbon goes into making chromium carbides instead of into solution in the steel matrix, leaving D2 with only ~0.5% C in solution and very large carbides that are good for wear resistance but bad for toughness. However, it is not really known how many different companies are making 8Cr13MoV (or at least I dont know), it could be that it is one manufacturer that is dominating the market. Steel softens as tempering temperature increases, but certain steels see an increase in hardness in a certain higher temperature range such as shown below for high speed steels that are designed for this type of tempering: This high temperature tempering can be done for several reasons, such as better resistance to overheating during grinding, or because a coating will be applied to the knife that requires a high temperature. There are significant differences between them because 14C28N is stainless steel, while D2 steel is a semi-stainless tool steel. But I think it would have much higher toughness than any of the steels on the chart. Rex 121 23.5% vanadium carbide, 4% molybdenum/tungsten carbide (M6C), Conventional Ingot vs Powder Metallurgy Carbide Structure. Low Carbon steels like AEB-L wont hold up to wood cutting even though it can hit 64 hard, it just doesnt have enough Carbon. Type 8Cr, the more common formulation, is worse than AUS-8: a little more prone to corrosion and not quite as hard. I was just comparing AEB-L and 14c28n to decide which steel to get for my next knife project and although 14c28n seems to be a bit more abrasion resistant, my primary goal is toughness and edge stability. This is the basis on which I do the ratings rather than a linear scale. Sandvik later came out with 14C28N which is a slightly improved version of 13C26. The only thing putting me off immediately buying the p135 is the 14c28n steel. For more information, please see our So, its hard steel is easy to sharpen. Short of purposeful abuse, its all but impossible to chip an edge on an INFI blade. imo o lot depends on how the blade is sharpened. Hes already done a three part series on cryogenic treatment: I've heard d2 is miles better and i dont want to pay 90 for the p135 and get a significantly inferior blade to paying 110 for the D2 Rat. In general, higher carbon steels have higher edge retention but lower toughness. Only a few years ago Elmax was pricey, but competition has driven it down to reasonable levels, making it a decent value. Not every element is shown in the charts. Perhaps a bigger issue with the upper temper is for stainless steels, as there is a significant reduction in corrosion resistance by tempering at 1000F instead of 400F. Custom maker Brian Trudeau uses Nitro V, and Massdrops Perpetua design is the first production knife to sport it. And we list budget-friendly knives that have a professional style and grace to them. If you're stuck between 14C28N and 440C, here's a breakdown of the pros and cons of each type of steel. When it comes to handle material, both knives have options available in either plastic or metal. most knives are being made out of these and other mediocre steels like 14c28n, 420j2, 425m. 12C27 steel is extremely popular in the US knife market for its high hardness, high wear resistance, and great corrosion resistance. Steel ratings are not about ranking steels in terms of what is better than another, but understanding the different balances such as toughness vs edge retention. For example, increasing edge retention from Z-Tuff to 3V (100 mm in the CATRA test) led to a drop in over 10 ft-lbs, a similar drop is seen by going from 3V to CPM-CruWear. 14c28n is the most popular material for the knife: stainless steel and made by the Swedish company. Its not a regression line, it is just a line through the best steels. This is to keep the focus on the elements that are making the biggest difference. Its probably in between Vanadis 8 and 10V. 14C28N steel is the improved version of 13C26 with better rust resistance. Generally seen as a slight upgrade to the 440C/VG-10/ATS-34 caliber of steel, its a decent all-around steel with good corrosion resistance, decent toughness, and only modest hardness. H1 One of the more common stainless steels, and one readily available in lots of different places worldwide, AUS-8 is a decent all-around steel. Cold Steel still uses VG-1 on some knives, and, for the money, it does well. Which one is right for you? Water is a severe quenchant that can often lead to warping or cracking. Marco, BSc Chem. Do honing steels as used on kitchen knives actually do anything useful? It mainly made for knife and it high in Chromium for excellent corrosion resistance. But if when youre searching for tough steel for your outdoor experience camping, or hunting, it would be perfect steel but not the best choice therere other steels with better than toughness that would suit your usage. Dr. Thomas you spoke of using a different media for cutting test and I have some extra veg tan leather and was wondering what are the parameters of the leather you need? The only thing putting me off immediately buying the p135 is the 14c28n steel. Despite its wonderful performance, XHP is actually not terribly expensive compared to other high-end, all-around performers. Both steels are popular among knife manufacturers and both have their strengths and weaknesses. Knife Steels Rated by a Metallurgist - Toughness, Edge Retention, and Knife Blades: Common Steels Explained | GearJunkie In the context of a knife this would be chipped edges or broken knives. 14c28n vs D2 Steel. This is an American-made powder steel. They have many similarities, including their high hardness, strength, and wear resistance. The greatest living knifemaker and one of the greatest knifemakers of all time, Michael Walker, calls AEB-L one of his favorite steels. VG-1 is a non-powder steel made by Japanese specialty steelmaker Takefu. Vg10 and cpms45vn same toughness at same hardness ? I can also say from personal experience that marine grade plywood will chaw up your saw blade and battery a lot quicker than standard plywood, but that probably says more about the glue that was used than the wood. But its very cheap, and, when ground appropriately, it can be a real winner from a value standpoint. Both of those things are no longer an issue as I now have way too many articles and a book. However, even steel with the best corrosion resistance can rust without proper care. This is a non-powder Japanese steel used primarily in Spyderco knives. looking at getting a nice larger flipper for a little under 100 AUD. I would like to see the rating and performance on test of the Chinese Steels, that some people use to say its cheap garbage, like 3Cr13MoV, 4Cr13, 4Cr13Mo, 4Cr14MoV, 5Cr15MoV, 6Cr13MoV, 7Cr17MoV, 8Cr13MoV, 9Cr13MoVCo, 9Cr18MoV, 9Cr19MoV, and the 14cr14MovNB to see if they are similar, worse or better than the steels that they copyi believe we gonna have some good unexpected results. The pictures below show the microstructures of the three classes of stainless steel on the market. nevertheles its importand to keep in mind what exactly is going on there (abrasive plastic media, loss of most of cutting ability during the first few strokes etc.). Therefore you will use it for a long time without requiring frequent sharpening. 2) you do not go into the sharpening in much detail. CPM-3V is a powder metallurgy contender in this category. Your email address will not be published. European steel company Sandvik produces 14C28N, a non-powder metallurgy steel. I think they are complementary and you should watch/read both. As a side note, pure tungsten carbide blades (from brands like Sandrin) can have very high levels of edge retention, but they are not made of steel. The difference in properties between 14C28N and D2 steel is very clear. A good quality knife must have sharpness, great edge retention, and a sturdy handle. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. CROMOVA . D2 steel also offers similar toughness levels as the 14c28n steel, so both aren't really prone to chipping with proper use. Fine-carbide knife steels. For more information see our. This is a nitrogen steel that is extremely corrosion-resistant so much so that its used in knives designed to go in salt water, among the most difficult conditions knives are used in. It can dull your edge, cause pitting, and damage the structural integrity of your knife. Quite an eyeopener! Maxamet and Rex 121 are so extreme in terms of wear resistance and edge retention that I rated them higher than 10 because otherwise it throws off the ratings for everything else. In nitrogen steels, nitrogen is used as the iron-hardener instead of carbon, thus limiting the possibility of rusting. It has an HRc over 70, usually even harder than Maxamet. It does have chromium but is not as sufficient as required to be a type of stainless steel. I was the heat treater, but after HT to only 58-59 hardness the blades went to the surface grinders for finishing and I remember them going into the packing boxes with mirror polished edges. But Ive found it lacking in hardness, even when compared to cheaper steels like AUS-8. A quick check shows the compositions of these steels are nearly identical, so based on that Id expect them to perform similarly (differences in heat treat and blade geometry aside). 14C28N steel is as a result of a more corrosion resistant version of the 13C26 steel. Properties: 14C28N: D2: Edge retention: 4/10: 7/10: Ease of sharpening: 6/10: 3/10: Corrosion resistance: 4/10: 4/10: Toughness: Thanks. Here, youll learn the different factors that go into each steel, ratings for a wide variety of steel alloys, and youll get some recommendations for types of knives different types of steel work well for. The Sandvik 14c28n steel is ideal for the manufacturing of steel knife blades. It rusts like nothing Ive seen before and it dull just by looking at it. However, this edge retention comes at the cost of sharpening ease for D2. . I would also suggest adding a hardness rating to the ratings tables that currently include toughness, edge retention, and corrosion resistance ratings. Its tough, but thats about it. This is an old high-carbon (non-stainless) steel. The maximum edge retention available in this group is not particularly high because most of the wear resistance comes from iron carbide, also called cementite, which is the softest of the different carbide types. Even it enhances corrosion resistance and wear resistance. But keep in mind that no steel is perfect for everything. as you mentioned catra indicates the edge angle as being by far the most important variable. Oh, thats great, thanks. Nitro V is also significantly cheaper than many other steels with this level of performance. At the end of the article I gave a list of reasons why I hadnt made my own ratings chart, two big reasons were: 1) I didnt yet have articles explaining what edge retention and toughness even is (this was early on in Knife Steel Nerds), 2) I didnt have good experimental numbers on many steels. Thanks in advance, Simon, For hard use everyday cutting in a packing company, Everything from fome, cardboard, tape, thick plastics, And plastic wrap that is against metal. Below shows Vanax tempered at 400F on the left and 1000F on the right after 1% saltwater for 24 hours: There are many other ways in which knife steel performance can be reduced through heat treatment but I cant cover them all in this article so hopefully these illustrative examples will be enough. A2 Knife Steel Air-hardened tool steel. The 14C28N, on the other hand, is tougher. Different companies can vary some between each other making the same product, while a single company is going to be more consistent. SPY27 at least it has some vanadium over the 420hc. We all have our preference, but overall, preference leans towards the pocket knife with a clip. And while youll find it mostly in expensive knives, quite a few approachable M390 blades exist. G10 Steels without these attributes are much less costly. Anyway, buff up the O1v and it cuts leather easily. This is basically a retrofit of a very old steel, adding more carbon to the recipe of 420 (hence the HC for high carbon). there seems to be an optimal procedure for every alloy (provided its heat treated to industial standards). For example, see the chart below for how much edge retention can change with edge geometry for a single steel (in this case 154CM and CPM-154). Elmax I always thought VG10 to be way more chippy/less tough compared cpms45vn. S110V has improved corrosion resistance at the cost of some toughness compared to S90V. and our That mixture has one goal in mind: making a great steel for people worried about rust and corrosion. However,M390, CTS-204P, and CPM-20CV are all pretty difficult to resharpen, so maintain that edge! Without any confusion, you can purchase this set that has a slim, versatile, modified drip-point blade with good slicing capabilities. Steel is a combination of iron and carbon with other elements. These steels favor edge retention over all else. Aluminum oxide is used in most common sharpening stones and it is softer than vanadium carbide, which makes sharpening high vanadium steels more difficult. Some of these steels also have vanadium (CruForgeV) or tungsten (Blue Super, V-Toku2, 1.2519) for increased wear resistance. Its an anomaly in the knife world and quite puzzling to use. Maxamet is one of two current high-hardness kings, with HRc marks in the high 60s approaching 70, a hardness usually only seen in carbide steels. With recommended hardness range of 55-62 HRC; the 14C28N is great for knife applications which place very high demands on edge sharpness, edge stability and corrosion resistance such as chefs knives, hunting knife, pocket knives and fishing knives. 14C28N knives offer better toughness than D2 knives. D2 is a tool steel used in industrial settings. An example of data being processed may be a unique identifier stored in a cookie. But which? We should be suspicious of anyone who is claiming very high edge retention with a steel at low hardness and a small amount of carbide. There one of the best reason that he is highly regarded as a knife designer. We and our partners use cookies to Store and/or access information on a device. Some steels are more difficult to manufacture for the steel company or have more expensive alloying elements so the cost is increased. 14C28N is essentially AEB-L (or perhaps more accurately Sandvik 13C26), but with improved corrosion resistance. Most of these steels rely on particle metallurgy and are therefore more expensive. I did a large study of different knives with identical sharpening and edge geometry. 420 Simple, non-stainless steels of medium carbon content like 5160 also boast high toughness. They lack the carbon necessary to hold an edge, even during mild use. Opinel Number 9 in carbon steel, and a Cold Steel Tanto Lite in their stainless steel. The stainless steel rating. One such person is Dr. Larrin Thomas, a professional metallurgist raised by a knife maker and a giant knife nerd. CPM 154 It has enough water-fighting properties that it can be used in marine environments. For the steels that I rated I give them a single rating rather than a range based on different heat treatments that can be performed. Here, we break down how to choose a flashlight, including best flashlight LEDs, batteries, designs, and more. BD1 isnt terribly hard but sharpens easily. The solid lockup and decent blade design make these two knives well suited for camping. 1% saltwater will separate between other stainless steels. GearJunkie Copyright 2013 2023. On the positive side, they are very easy to forge and grind. Sandvik 14c28n Steel Review - KnifeUp While 14C28N and D2 are both pretty to look at, buyers always regard one over the other. quite possibly the best steel youll find on a sub-$30 production knife. Anthony Sculimbrene authors the blog EverydayCommentary.com. Therefore, ensure to wash and dry your knives after use to keep the rust away. 14C28N VS Steel. The value being slightly different doesnt mean its an outlier or measurement error. ApexUltra is a steel that we are working on that had excellent properties in small batch production (50 lbs). 1095. It had better than expected corrosion resistance due to the lack of chromium carbides, a behavior also seen in MagnaCut. How Is 14C28N Steel for Knives? Read more. Almost all of the knives in my EDC rotation are Spydercos, in exotic steels. 0.62% of Carbon: Makes knives harder and more resistant.
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